Elive 2.0 - Pay to Install rather than download

I have just been looking at the Elive site and was looking at the download section.

As you know in order to download Elive you have to pay a donation which in all fairness is pretty fair I think given how much time and effort has gone in to the development of the operating system, however I just saw this on the download page:

"For the next stable release, it is planned to allow the download totally free. Instead of pay for the download you should pay just for the installation. This means that the live mode is entirely free and you should pay only if you want to install Elive in your hard disk."

Please tell me this is not serious? Does "should" actually mean "you wil have to"?
How is this pay to install system likely to work?
Does this mean that every time I want to re-install my machine I will have to pay another fee? If this is the case then I honestly think I will be saying bye bye to elive and installing another non M$ OS.

Does anyone else have any idea's / info on how this new pay to install system is going to work?

Hi smirnoff , i assume that there will be some sort of key or password to reinstall Elive.

Do not worry Thanatermesis ensure the right thing to do.

Greetings:
Agust

Linux user # 461797
Elive user since 2006

Talking of the new release version of elive is anyone any wiser as to how long we will be waiting?
Why isn't Thanatermesis giving any clues as to when we can "roughly" expect 2.0 to be released?

I'm also waiting for 2.0 - I don't want to go from Windows now to v1, and the upgrade again, to get to v2

About the version 2.0, the timeline date is not possible to know at all, but you can have some a kind of "monitoring" of its progress by looking at the remaining bugs for 2.0, and the timeline for 2.0 in the dev's website, so:

[bugs.elivecd.org]

[dev.elivecd.org]

About the payment, yes, that's the idea, and this is the "installer module" for (actually free), it will be implemented for the next 2.0 version and you will NOT need to pay again before 3.0 (install of any 2.0+ develpment version), the price is not decided yet but could be something like 15 bucks, not a very big price for a entire stable release and to the next one.

The 'invitation codes' will still continue working at the same way as they work, remember that the payments of elive are not intended to restrict anybody to use elive, but to maintain the project, this is why the invitation codes are made.

Good points of this way: the user dont needs to pay BEFORE to try elive, so he will be sure that elive works correctly on his hardware

Hello,

as I understand payment will be only for a stable version, and dev versions staying no cost at all - right ?

Hi anu , look here:

[www.elivecd.org]

Payment Questions

The payment of Elive will change in the next versions: It is not needed to pay anymore for the download, just for the installation, on this way, the user will use freely the live version (stable or testing) all the time that he want's, also he can try the product (could be unhappy to pay for it and to found that there's any uncompatibility with the hardware or something like that), then when the user would like to install, will need to pay for it.

Since the next Stable version, if you lost what you have download, with the ID of the transaction you can download it again

If you are unable to pay the small price (remember that Elive doesn't want to restrict anybody to use it, just want to support the project), you can request a invitation code by doing any of the listed jobs, that should be pretty equivalent to the price of the payment

After to pay for the installation, you don't need to pay per EVERY TIME you reinstall your Elive, it will be compatible under the rest of the versions (development, compiz, etc...) until the next Stable Release

Greetings:

Agust

Linux user # 461797
Elive user since 2006

Hello,

yes thanks, i read that, maybe im missunderstanding, but there is no info about dev version. Its clear, stable - install = pay.

But what about dev(unstable) version, is it will be awailable to install without payment (well as it is now) m ?



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 06/19/2009 01:32PM by anu.

No, so that you can pay for install the stable version and then upgrade at any times (to development versions) that you want, in other words, the way of work is different:

* Before: you was need to pay only for the download, and for try elive you will have the development versions

* Now: for try elive you have the download free, like the livecd mode that you can use all the times that you want without limit, you will need to pay only for put it statically to your hard disk (install), remember that the live mode has RW features so you can apt-get install or compile anything under it.


For those that can't possible (or just will be hard) to pay, there's the invitation codes that we want to maintain, in order to have it you can do two things:

* A friend that will gift you a code

* Do a 'small equivalent' job in order to obtain a code (like to write an article about Elive)

Pour ma part je paie!
pas envie de "pirater un ouindoze".
le LIBRE ne veux pas dire necessairement GRATUIT.
collaborons ensemble pour la liberté de choisir!
tout a un prix!

olivier Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
le LIBRE ne veux pas dire necessairement GRATUIT.

+1

Salutations.
Agust

Linux user # 461797
Elive user since 2006

OK payment is fine but what about when devices don't work and ndiswrapper is useless. I have paid for 2 previous releases and have always had the same problem wireless never works and after weeks of trying to get it working I have to give up and go back to Ubuntu. For instance testing the compiz version and can not get the intel 5100 agn card to work. I try installing a new kernel and elive simply will not configure it, not even elive-kernels.
Paying is fine because this is a very good linux distro if you are lucky and everything works but when they don't you sweat blood trying to get it to work

I agree with leanmoha, paying would be fine if there was enough support.
Debian support is good, but obviously not always useful when installing Elive. Elive users on the irc channel do not know a whole lot more. They seem to use the system without or with hardly any modifications.
It sounds a bit like microsoft, if it runs properly you're lucky and if it doesn't you can always wait for the next release (without guarantees that it will work in the new version).

also, if you want a wider distribution (or is it not supposed to become better known?), you may want to keep it completely free for a while.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 08/18/2009 05:34PM by Torllan.

That's why the payment is moving to for install now , so you download Elive, run it in Live mode all that you want, and if everything is working correctly, then pay for install (if you are not satisfied with it or some driver not works, just don't pay)

I have just downloaded the latest development version and am installing it in a VM. So far, I am impressed with the setup of this distribution. Once I can test it in the VM fully and then on the actual PC, I will contribute. I am contributing for two reasons:

1) I recognize the effort that has gone into this and want to contribute to the past efforts.
2) I want to support this effort ongoing.

I must be honest, I was a bit put-off by the "charge to download". After seeing the distro, I am more accepting. I think the "new method" will be better received. I understand the intention in creating revenue. I also understand the intention is to capture revenue from those who are using the distro instead of those just "checking it out". I think your "new method" tries to achieve this. Perhaps you could come up with a system that allowed users to install for free, but only allows updates for 30 days or so. This would more like a "paid support" model.

Anyway, thanks for the efforts.

"checking out the distro", yes, specially since there's thousands of GNU/Linux distros (even if Elive is in a good ranking on Distrowatch)

Well, the idea about the free installs (yes, there's an idea about to install Elive free), is very simple and good for the user, and good for Elive: There's some users that simply "can't pay" by any reason, maybe because doesn't has money or doesn't has the way to pay (paypal, visa, etc), so the idea is to put an alternative to a payment, but of course it is not a good idea to have a 'free alternative' because then, everybody will choice this one instead to pay, so is needed to have an equivalent 'cost' alternative, the idea is to made a 'small job', for example the most common is to just/simple write an article about Elive in internet, this will benefit Elive at the same way too, write an article is no-cost but for who can pay may preffer to pay 15 bucks than lost a few hours writing an article, and this then give to the user a (full, so no limited) free install

By the way I have added to the FAQ list something about the "free" term that a lot of users may confuse, specially some new users and more specially some ones that comes from another gnu/linux OS that i dont want to say the name

Anyways, I have added this link here because I think is a very interesting read for anybody, no matters if you know correctly the "free" term or not, is just a very constructive small thing to read in order to grow your open source knowledges

[www.elivecd.org] (2 sub-links included)


Thanatermesis

Thanatermesis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> That's why the payment is moving to for install
> now , so you download Elive, run it in Live mode
> all that you want, and if everything is working
> correctly, then pay for install (if you are not
> satisfied with it or some driver not works, just
> don't pay)


Well that "sounds" reasonable... But: (A) I had an odd incident that occurred when I recently got around to installing the elive 1.0 that I downloaded some months ago... Aside from which, (B) I knew I was going to have to install it before I could really test drive it because I'm always very dependent on massive changes to the user interface including drastically increasing all font sizes, and changing ALL the keybindings on any new installation. Which on my laptop I lack the dexterity of doing with my touchpad mouse until I succeed in disabling all synaptic tapping and scrolling functions.

(A) one of the few things I did check that the livecd was able to do was to get a browser fired up and test that it did in fact reach google.
But when I installed, elive wasn't able to automatically connect the same eth0 to the internet via dhcp that the livecd session had automatically used. Google searches from my kubuntu installation didn't turn up a clue. I found a few old threads in the forum, but none that solved my problem. It was sheer chance that I remembered that I once test drove some linux version or other that had autodetected my ethernet as eth1 instead of eth0. So it turned out that once I found the networking tool All I needed to do was to disable eth0 (which was apparently my laptops unused wireless device) configure and enable eth1 and I was online...

My point is, if the live session was able to automatically use the ethernet device without manual intervention, and the installed version from the same cd {which passed both md5sum and the installers recommended media check} was not able to do so, then there are some differences between the live and installed versions. It wouldn't seem fair to some real newbie to let them run into something like this AFTER they paid for the installation would it?


(B) On the side point involving my dexterity problem, would a live session let me use enlightenment_remote to set up the keybindings my fat fingers expect???


And Just to verify if I understood the discussion about future development releases...

I think I understood the discussion to mean that when you pay for the installation of the stable version, you get something that enables the installation of both that stable release AND any unstable development versions that are released prior to the next stable release.

But if for example I don't pay for elive 2.0 stable, (and also don't acquire an invitation code for it) I will also be unable to install developental versions 2.x.x.xx But all of them will be available for free download and if I find a live session that I like well enough to want to install it, then I pay to install elive 2.0, and use it instead to install the "upgraded unstable" version I liked???

Assuming that some expert will actually chip in and help when if someone has an issue like (A) {see above} that they can't resolve, Then I don't see any reason to complain about the new system.

Though I'm curious how this would work... Currently I have only my laptop. But someday when I solve some cash flow issues, I'm going to have a replacement for my deceased desktop. If I did decide 2.x was worth installing and paid to install it on the laptop, would I need to pay again to install it to the desktop, or would the install (key or whatever) be transferable to all "my" personal computers?



--
jtwdyp

A) This problem is solved if im not wrong, the network configuration is saved on the installed mode, but also, it is very easy to setup it in recent versions of elive

B) Yes, you can do almost the SAME things in live mode than installed, so you can see if the live mode satisfy your needs. There's only a few features/things that you can't do in live mode, for example use the Nurse mode, install bonus disks, etc

The new payment system for installation by default allow only one payment (so installer-module) per computer, you can't use it on a different computer, that's how this system works internally from its main base and its is not possible to change it. By other side I think myself on that situation, I have some computers in my house, and a normal user has sometimes 2 computers (specially computer-lovers like GNU/linux and similar users), and I think in the feel that this user will pay elive for his main computer but that want to put it on the laptop too, even if sounds correct, maybe he don't use much the laptop and is not worth to pay a new elive install for it, but still wanting to have it on the laptop... I finally decided that a good thing is to give 2 installations per 1 payment, like a second as a gift.

Thanatermesis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> A) This problem is solved if im not wrong, the
> network configuration is saved on the installed
> mode, but also, it is very easy to setup it in
> recent versions of elive


Good! I can verify that the dhcp connection worked without a hitch in elive 1.9.51 using the same laptop etc...


> B) Yes, you can do almost the SAME things in live
> mode than installed, so you can see if the live
> mode satisfy your needs. There's only a few
> features/things that you can't do in live mode,
> for example use the Nurse mode, install bonus
> disks, etc


Also good... Though I note that I mentioned using enlightenment_remote to set keybindings...
I didn't check while in the preinstall live mode, but with the installed version of elive 1.9.51

enlightenment_remote -binding-key-add ANY "Prior"  "CTRL|ALT" 0 "exec" "konsole -e Ebindview"

gets an error message about a new dbus wrapper version with a pointer to a --help new flag that informs you that the old
enlightenment_remote is at the moment still available as enlightenment_remote_old But If I try to

enlightenment_remote_old -binding-key-add ANY "Prior"  "CTRL|ALT" 0 "exec" "konsole -e Ebindview"

elive just plain locks up. (well the terminal window wasn't dead But nothing else was working, and since I made the mistake of closing my terminal session with ^D, I wound up logging out via the power button... {sigh}

BTW Ebindview is a personal script that normaly envokes less on both on my ~/.e16/bindings.cfg, and on a bash script file containing the enlightenment_remote commands it should take to recreate my current keybindings,



> The new payment system for installation by default
> allow only one payment (so installer-module) per
> computer, you can't use it on a different
> computer, that's how this system works internally
> from its main base and its is not possible to
> change it. By other side I think myself on that
> situation, I have some computers in my house, and
> a normal user has sometimes 2 computers (specially
> computer-lovers like GNU/linux and similar users),
> and I think in the feel that this user will pay
> elive for his main computer but that want to put
> it on the laptop too, even if sounds correct,
> maybe he don't use much the laptop and is not
> worth to pay a new elive install for it, but still
> wanting to have it on the laptop... I finally
> decided that a good thing is to give 2
> installations per 1 payment, like a second as a
> gift.


Thankyou!

I'm curious though, I noticed that [main menu -> applications -> administration -> upgrade elive (install a new version of elive)] exists
in elive 1.9.51... This got me thinking about how with kubuntu I usualy try to avoid having to recreate all my user preference settings etc... on an upgrade by editing the /etc/apt/sources.list and running apt-get dist upgrade. Which has worked on average 2 out of 3 times since Breezy. On the other occasions it messes up so bad I had to reformat and try again from scratch... Which brings me to the question about the "paid" installer knowing to only install/reinstall on one computer... Would it know it was the same computer if it's data files were gone do to a reformated hard drive? Or better yet If the hard drive crashed and was replaced with a new one????

And does the "paid" installer allow for some method of upgrading an existing older version elive installation that preserves user data and/or preference settings (such as keybindings etc...)???

I for one would be more likely to pay for an upgrade that was only marginaly better than my existing installation if I could do so without the pain of reconfigureing everthing all over again. Incidentaly, So far, aside from a few issues with keybindings go, Elive 2.0 is going to have to be something special to get me to like it better than what I've so far seen with elive 1.9.51. Which is looking more and more like it just might become my default linux boot (even IF it's only a developement version...) I'm thinking most the things I use are working as good or better in it, than I'd expect the same things to work in either Kubuntu or Sabayon... I can't tell you how glad I am that I decided to make room for it on my laptop... Thank you! Thank you! Thank you! It's obvious that somebody has been working their tail off to make Elive into something really special. Thank you!


--
jtwdyp

To set keybindings you need to set them in the e17 preferences, in the Input section

Sorry, I dont know what Breezy is.

An installer code always works for the same computer, ulimited times, only until to the next stable version (very probably)

A good number of configurations are saved, others needs to be made again (like e17 configurations)

"Reconfiguring everything all"..., some things needs to be wiped out and to put a new configuration, others are just included because is easy or stable to do it on the installer, you are welcome to fill up a list of the things that should be included in the installer as "this thing should be saved on the reinstall" and report it to [bugs.elivecd.org] as "feature request", i will made a look to the things that can be included and try to implement them.

That was clearer

I am getting an invalid code message when I try to install. I already paid for the installer. How do I resolve this? Please give me my money back.

jnalli: Send an email to Thanatermesis (email found in the Contact section of the Elive website) saying your problem and he will solve your problem

Hello

I would like to pay, but I do not have a credit card for PayPal. I can pay "WebMoney"? If this is not possible, then send an invitation code please.

PS: Sorry for my terrible English.

more info: [www.elivecd.org]

verdegal37 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
~snip~
>
> The payment of Elive will change in the next
> versions: It is not needed to pay anymore for the
> download, just for the installation,

~snip~

Just a small reminder, the distro CentOS is proof that even a commercial distro can be obtained free.
They give away Red Hat Enterprise Linux, which is substantially more than $15.00

This is because the GNU-GPL requires that a distro make freely available the source code of the packages in it's repository. The original project site is not sufficient to meet that requirement, each distro has to make the version(s) they have in their repository available.

The requirement for payment can bite a distro if they don't have the sources freely available, the Free Software Foundation and GNU.org will force it. [ legal expenses can bankrupt a small distro ] There are many GNU/Linux users who equate Free Software with cost, not the Freedom that the FSF means. Those users can go after sources and if not available push the issue.

Let's see this example: I write an application for enterprises, you are an enterprise, I set a free license to this application, then you buy me this application and im obliged to give you the source code WITH it... But Im not obliged to give you anything freely if you don't buy me this application. There's a big difference.

This could be a great debate

I am hoping this changes in the next release.. The whole pay to install is a real pain, and does put people off
the matter is made even worse for those people that frequently re-install or install onto a virtual enviroment ....

I would rather have the pay to download option....

Could change in the next release... but then, how i can pay designers, extra coding work, taxes, servers, etc ?

Good point, though "It could change in the next release... but then, how i can pay designers, extra coding work, taxes, servers, etc "

You are paying them to much for not a lot, unless you are keeping something from us....

I am happy to pay for a distro, but would rather do it at download rather than install.. Its a real mess around when you re-install, use a virtual
install platform etc..

What do you think .

Hehe, it was "payment for download" in the past and then moved to this new method because its a lot better, for example, you don't pay for something that you don't like, or you don't pay for something that doesnt work properly (drivers) in your computer.

eno1997: Im sorry to not understand you correctly... can you clarify us what is the exact trouble/problem that you have so that we can try to help you ?

I think the problem is limiting the installs and poor choice of base OS.

my only problem with Elive has been the fact I could never install up to date software without running the risk of killing the system and being forced to re-install. I had hoped that between the final development version 1.9.60 and 2.0 this would have been fixed but it was not. So even though I paid to install 2.0 if only to help fund the Elive project which is still the only one that gives me Entrance out of the box, I soon went back to 1.9.60.

If you had allowed unlimited installs on the same machine using the key file downloaded during the install then I don't think there would be so many complaints about paying. The only issue would then be if like I have done a few times in the past, changed my computer's motherboard for one reason or another.

You could even do this by having people installing Elive create accounts linked to the last version of Elive they had installed since I'll assume there is a version marker on the iso/usb image. So you can easily reference which version of Elive someone is trying to install to the last version recorded in their Elive Account.

Also to prevent key-file sharing, if you are really worried about that, have it that the key-files are only available in the person's account and does not get downloaded to the computer. The only purpose of the file will just be to check which version of Elive the person has paid for vs which version they are trying installing.

Yes you were right that it was not fair on people to pay to see if they liked Elive but the solution you used for Elive 2.0 install and payment only works if the OS is as stable as OSX or Windows

Quote
If you had allowed unlimited installs on the same machine using the key file downloaded during the install then I don't think there would be so many complaints about paying.

Yes, unfortunately, the "nature of operation" which works the installer-modules makes this not possible. You are right about "Elive accounts", this could be a solution, if you like, we can discuss more about this suggestion for the installer modules on this forum thread because we are planning to have a better new website:

Specific post: [forum.elivecd.org]
Main thread: [forum.elivecd.org]

Hello, grande surprise pour moi de voir qu'il fallait payer pour installer cette distribution très prometteuse sur clé usb.
Mais je n'étais, et je ne suis pas contre.
Le problème est bien le coût minimal : 15 €
Ce n'est même pas que je ne VEUX pas, je ne PEUX pas.
Vous avez entendu parler de la crise ?
Merci de m'avoir lu.

Hello, big surprise for me to see that I had to pay to install this promising distribution I tried on USB live key.
But I was not, and I'm not against.
The problem is the minimum cost of 15 €
It's not even that I do not WANT I CAN not.
You've heard of the crisis?
Thank you for reading me.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 04/19/2013 04:13AM by arefacti.